Hans Ulrich Obrist (here in after as H): Today. I want to start this interview with your heroes-those people who have influenced you. When l was interviewing many young artists, they all told me you are there teacher. And l want to ask who your teacher is?

YU Youhan (here in after as Y): I usually like foreign artists, the impressionists in the beginning and then post-impressionists, Matisse, Picasso, and then American abstract expressionists. And then when I got back to China, I found there are many good artists in China, especially in the ancient times. This is a great (concept). If you ask me about my personal teacher, then there is nobody that can be called my teacher.

H: Many Avant-Garde artists started in the l980s, but you seemed to have begun earlier. Had you already started to do some Avant-Garde art works in the l970s?

Y: Now I keep the works in 1973. The paintings in 1973 carry a touch of expressionism, a girl's head portrait. But I have not always been like this. I would often change my style.

H: Robert Rauschenberg came to China very early. What kind of influence does he have on you?

Y: He went to Beijing at that time, but I didn't go to see his things. His influence on me is not big. Most of my creations arc easel paintings.

H: You started to paint expressionist works in the 1970s, but in Europe expressionism only started to get popular in the l980s.

Y: I didn't create (expressionism). I have seen some (expressionist works). My neighbor, although his dad is not my teacher, I saw his dad's books and paintings on the wall. In a certain sense, his father is also my teacher, but he has never instructed me.

H: We have found many artists of the 1980s, but it's hard to find artists (making contemporary art) before the 1980s.

Y: In Shanghai there are still LIN Fengmian, LIU Haisu and WU Dayu from the l930s all the way to the 1950s.

H: Do you know them?

Y: I don't know them. I seldom saw their original works. But this neighbor of mine is their friend. This old sir was imprisoned around 1955.

H: Is he out now?

Y: He was released very late.

H: Just like AI Weiwei's father? He went to Xinjiang.

Y: Yes.

H: Is he still alive?

Y: He has passed away.

H: Is his son alive?

Y: His son is still alive and his works are still there. But the works are seldom showed to the public. But in my opinion, his works are really good.

H: In what aspects are they good?

Y: They are very free and have great brush strokes.

H: Landscapes or figure paintings?

Y: Mostly landscapes. There are few figure paintings.

H: Were you early works also landscapes?

Y: I painted many landscapes in the early period of learning. As I only studied one year at the Department of Ceramics of Central Academy of Craft Art, my foundation was not solid.

H: You learnt ceramics within a year?

Y: I didn't learn it well but just began to learn. Because I didn't have a major, I only had some interest in painting before I was enrolled in college. Afterwards, I was allocated to Central Academy of Craft Art. I still had to go to teach, teaching students to paint still objects and street scenes. This impelled me to learn painting.

H: Did you learn a lot by yourself?

Y: I learnt almost everything by myself.

H: Do you use photos when you arc painting?

Y: I didn't use photos when I was drawing street scenes in Shanghai, I did life drawing. I also did life painting when I was painting still objects. I only painted the Yimeng Mountain Series based on photos.

H: You are DING Yi's teacher and he is the teacher of many artists. What kind of connection is between this? Do you like being a teacher?

Y: I was allocated by the state to work as a teacher. In the beginning, I didn't know whether it was good or not. Later I found chat I had more free time to spend. I could paint and also meet students who liked art. We could communicate with and learn from each other. So later I thought being a teacher was not bad.

H: At that time, there were few abstract works in China, right?

Y: Although there were not many at that time, I had seen some. At that time, I thought I could have a try (of this style). Then I saw three pieces of not large works at WU Dayu's exhibition such as Morning in the Park, etc. There was another person who was a teacher of Central Academy of Craft Art and eight years older than me. Now he is in Macao. Then I also saw a very big abstract painting in his home.

H: But in the l920s and l930s, Russian avant-garde artists such as Malevich had such abstract tradition, but there was no such tradition in China.

Y: At that time I already knew people like Mondrian and Kandinskv. I saw them in books.

H: Do you still remember the day when you decided to paint abstract paintings?

Y: There was no such miraculous day. I had studied this style of abstract art for 4 0r 5 years before I finally decided to stay at this style.

H: My idol Francis Picabia once said. "Human head is round." Therefore he often changed his style. Your art career started with abstract art and then you turned to pop. Did you look at things in the same way when you had such changes? Or your whole person was just transformed?

Y: I didn't change, but the outside world changed.

H: Did Shanghai change?

Y: The nation changed. In the age of MAO Zedong, the atmosphere of the whole nation was different.

H: I think MAO Zedong wouldn't like abstract art, so did you fight against the political ideas at that time when you were doing abstract art?

Y: My attitude then was just to turn my back on them. But at that time, MAO Zedong already passed away. When I did my abstract works between 1980 and 1989, the national situation changed again. It was during the time of the reform and opening up. A lot of situations happened such as inflation, price increase and corruption. But many young people wished the nation to be progressed, rich and strong. At that time, I wanted to change and happened to see a small pamphlet named POP ART.

Fl: Did you buy it?

Y: Yes

H: In 1988 0r 1989?

Y: At the end of the l980s. At that time I thought this kind of style could make my works accord with the constantly changing (transforming) age.

H: I see your former pop works are very beautiful. Mondrian's works are the miniatures of an ideal society. Is this connection also represented in your abstract art?

Y: My abstract works not only attempt to contain miniatures of society; more importantly, they attempt to represent the miniatures of nature and human. (My paintings are) just like desultory ideas. An idea that is interrupted here will continue at another end.

H: This is not simple. You painted a series of abstract circles, right?

Y: Yes, there are around 20 pieces.

H: A series?

Y: We can say that.

H: What kind of thing propelled you to create this series?

Y: It is mainly LAO Tzu's Classic of the Virtue of the Tao. I like LAO Tzu's basic ideas very much, so I also want my pictures to reach a fresh, agile and continuing effect. Therefore, LAO Tzu can be called my spiritual mentor.

H: If When I was asking who your teacher is at the beginning, your answer was not artists but LAO Tzu. How interesting it would have been!

H: You were doing abstract paintings in 1985. Were you DING Yi's teacher?

Y: Yes.

H: You turned to pop painting in 1986? Later Uli Sigg collected your works. I got to know your works from him. Why did you turn from abstract to pop and then back to abstract?

Y: There are three aspects of reasons. Even if I insisted on the road of abstract art, I would have gradually changed my style over the years. But I just like changes. For example, when I paint circles, I first draw a black one, then a white one and then a black one again, not like a scientist who keeps studying one project all the time for 20 years, 50 years until he studies it thoroughly. I am happy to see the picture in my mind show. Then I change myself by gaining stimuli so as to handle new stimuli. So this (change) is natural for me.

H: which piece of work had the effect of turn in style change?

Y: There is no such work here.

H: Can you tell us?

Y: Yes. It's a chair, but many small dots are drawn on this chair Later I changed the background of Jean Auguste Dominique Ingres’ The Turkish Slave Girl and drew many strokes on the body, I also drew four pieces of RMB paper money. I draw them all in 1988.

H: Are you unwilling to publish a book that can introduce yourself in detail or you don't have such a chance?

Y: First of all, it's because I don't have a chance. Also, many early materials are not kept. Some photos are very small; (the colors) are not precise after printing. I am also worried that these pictures would appear messy when put together. There is an art gallery in Germany just near Brandenburg Gate. They did one exhibition for me. They just put all these together. It turned out that just a few spectators came and it (the exhibition) just ended.

H: I went to the exhibition by Biljana Ciric --Shanghai 1979-2009. They exhibit your abstract works together with pop works. There is no feeling of conflict. The spectators can understand the idea of the artist and the exhibition organizer. I also want to know about that two conflicting elements, such as the East and the West, MAO Zedong and Whitney Huston, often appear in your pop works. Can you talk about this?

Y: I want to introduce a contrast through this. On the earth today, there always exist such confronting forces because I want to express this world. I adopt such conflicting symbols. For me, this world, of course not natural landscapes but humanistic politics and environment is like this.

H: When you were doing pop art, were photos and all kinds of printed materials very important? How did you keep them?

Y: Yes! Very important. In Ah, We series, I cut off some portraits and collected them Later I saw a book named Nationality Pictorial at a street stall. It was a special edition to commemorate the death of MAO Zedong and there were a lot of his pictures. This picture is a cover of an album I saw at WANG Ziwei's, the photo is very beautiful and square. Later I also found a photo of President MAO clapping. I thought this must be interesting, so I painted these two pictures together and they connected.

H: Pop art had been leading for a long time in the West and had a long history. What kind of relationship is there between Chinese pop art and Western pop art?

Y: First of all. I want to say, because Chinese artists saw Western pop art, we have our own pop art; otherwise, we would still be painting portraits, still objects or landscapes today. But China has a characteristic. That is we have rich political picture materials, or we can say, we have sufficient energy and is outstanding. This stimulates us and young people nowadays. Their paintings are more or less related to the present social politics. In this aspect, Chinese artists will feel this road is very natural and smooth and can walk out easily. If we don't draw MAO, we will feel the distance if we draw other things. MAO is like the center of things. So I draw MAO on the one hand and paint the age I live in on the other hand.

H: There are some other pop artists in China such as WANG Guangyi. How is your relationship with them? Or how do you look at them?

Y: We are not related. We are just things that happen simultaneously in two different places. I am in Shanghai and he is in Beijing. We don't know each other. The only person I contact often is WANG Ziwei. He drew pop and is also my student.The first time when I saw a picture with MAO Zedong's head portrait was in his home.

H: Is he still painting?

Y: He signed with three galleries. Many of his works often use style like Lichtenstein, But I draw like Chagall. Chagall often painted his memory of Russia when he was in France. But I draw my memory of MAO when I was young. It's just our styles are a bit different.

H: Some people say the city has changed a lot. Chinese cities are becoming bigger and bigger. Every place is urbanized. The architect who built the CCTV building -Rem Koolhass- made abundant researches on China. He thinks China's rural area is very important. Do you often draw landscapes?

Y: I don't draw landscapes so often. It's just the Yimeng Mountain Series I drew in 2000s. When I saw the city building skyscrapers on a large scale, my feelings were just confused like the eyes of the girl in that painting. I called that building “empty cell”. It was under this circumstance that l went to Yimeng Mountain in 2002.

H: Did you take the students to do life paintings then? With cameras?

Y: I didn't take students. It was just an antecedent inspection.

H: You took some pictures and then painted these landscapes based on them. Can you tell me the story of these landscapes?

Y: These landscapes of mine are more or less the same. Only the head portrait of a girl you saw just now is slightly different.

H: Why landscapes?

Y: Because landscapes are just stones and mud.

H: Look abstract.

Y: In the painting just now, the landscape is surrounded by the “empty shell”. But I saw mud, stones and old granite in lager or small sizes just like old mountains that were not so tall but close to me, not like Everest that is unreachable. On this kind of mountains, you could plant potatoes and vegetables. And a little girl would pass by with a farm tool on her shoulders from time to time. This made me feel that the situation of early human society should by like this without being dissimilated.

H: Landscapes are sometimes very empty only with stones and trees. So landscapes turn back to abstract art.

Y: Yeah. The original purpose of doing abstract is to leave this world. This is called 'out of the world- in Chinese saying, meaning to leave society. For me, this is the second time of leaving society.

H: You "left society" again in 2009?

Y: What I devote to art is many 80%, not l00%. The remaining 20% is my fantasy, my fantasy that the future would be better

H: 80% “out of society"? Leave?

Y: That's right.

H: We haven't talked about these works. There are many people in this pop work. Did you arrange this kind of structure on purpose?

Y: This piece of work actually draws MAO Zedong's whole life. There are five MAOs. These red symbols and these flowers on the body. I bring it to the newest situation of the traditional Chinese society, not like so-called theory of Marxism-Leninism of our Party. This is the real present situation of the Chinese society.

H: If you are asked to give a suggestion to young artists in 2009, what will it be?

Y: Be loyal to your own observation and feelings. You don't need to paint trendy styles that seem to be likely to get popular. Just express the deepest things in your heart in the plainest way.

H: You are not only the teacher of DING Yi but also of many young students. Is XU Zhen also your student?
Y: He graduated from our school, but we can't say his is my student, because I have never taught him. The same is with SONG Tao.

H: Are you still teaching?

Y: No. I have retired.

Lorenz Helbling (here in after as L): There is still a series that we haven't talked about. That is Mao Zedong Series by foreign artists such as Mao by Mondrian and Van Gogh. Which year?

Y: It seems to be 1999.

L: Has this series been completed?

Y: Completed for the time being. The series took around 2 0r 3 years. It originated from a slogan in the Cultural Revolution-President Mao of the world. Then the idea came that one artist drew one Mao. Those artists include Malevich, Mondrian, Van Gogh, Cezanne and Leonardo da Vinci.

H: Did you come here by bicycle? This is very unusual here.

Y: Right. I parked my bike opposite.

H: You have a beautiful painting of bicycle created in 1989.

Y: Because at that time, bicycle was the most popular transportation tool in China. China was a country of bicycles. Almost every one of us had a bicycle. This is a "plain" bicycle.

H: To be more political, this time reminds of Tiananmen Square Event.

Y: Yes. There were indeed some emotions then. But it seemed that other ways were not suitable. According to the Chinese tradition, literature and artists expressions should be very implicit. This is a common bicycle painted with flowers and it looked like it involved a touch of irony. But for most people, this is no more than a beautiful picture. I don't want everyone to know my real thought anyway. This one is later (another painting of bicycle), because I had such a bicycle, a racing bicycle. I stopped painting MAO at that time and tried to paint Land.

H: This painting-Land-was the cover of "Shanghai 1979-2009" exhibition. Can you tell me about this piece of work?

Y: This is a series of mine. It's called “Picture Flashcards”. When I was considering Land, I viewed the map of China. At that time DENG Xiaoping put forward the development of Pudong to build Shanghai into the leading city in China.

H: I saw this point then, although it was not so easy to sense the political implication of it. Have you ever thought of some projects to be published or in cooperation with architects but you have never achieved them? Both big and small ones.

Y: I basically just think about painting and don't give much consideration to other projects. You can come to my art gallery to have a look when you have the chance.

H: Has it already been built?

Y: It's completed, but no painting has been hung.

H: How many floors are there?

Y: There are 4 floors in total. One of floors is for rest.

L: How do you arrange the floors?

Y: The first floor is abstract; the second floor is the lounge and warehouse; the third floor is landscapes and the fourth is Mao Series.

H: Did you design it yourself?

Y: No, it was not designed by a famous architect. Here is not just this building of my art gallery. The buildings in this area all have similar architecture style.

L: What did your son do for you?

Y: Interior design.

H: Thank you for giving us so much of your time! It's nearly 90 minutes.

Y: If you don't need to catch a flight tonight, I advise you to have a look at my art gallery.

H: Thanks! Thanks for coming here tonight.

Y: Thank you as well? I think I am not a prodigy. There is an old Chinese saying that a fool's bolt may sometimes hit the mark.

H: Thank you very much! There is still one issue didn’t talk about just now. It’s that many painting were negated because of the emergence of photography and movies in the 20th century.

Y: I insist on painting because it’s like walking. People have invented cars and airplanes, but still need walk.

H: You open the picture with the first stroke and then the second and third follow. So my last question is, when do you decide that it’s the last stroke?

Y: Observe all things of the picture. If it has a whole image without off-key strokes and patches, that's the end of it.

H: You pursue harmony and realness in your works, right?

Y: Realness lies in the heart. Express what you like in your heart naturally. The picture looks harmonious and needs a vitality of life.

H: Then the last question (Laughing), have you ever painted your own portrait?

Y: Yes. I did, twice or three times.

H: Have you published them? Where can I see them?

Y: Last time, an institution asked me to write an essay and each of us was asked to draw a self-portrait about half a year ago. I drew it in the 1980s.

Y: Can you tell me about your pencil sketches?

Y: They are just sketches, very small and drawn with a soft pencil. The earliest was when I was in PLA troops. Before I came to college, I had a sketch book. I would draw portraits of people as well as of pigs.

H: The last question, how do you look at the future?

Y: I don't know. Haven't dinosaurs extinct? Maybe human beings are also dinosaurs. But I can't make a sure judgment; I am just a bit worried.