Interview with Liang Shaoji about You Si Miao - An Infinitely Fine Line
Date: 21, Sept, 2009
The interview was conducted via telephone
Interviewer: Dai Zhanglun

Dai Zhanglun (hereinafter referred to as “Dai”): The exhibition was entitled You Si Miao - An Infinitely Fine Line. “You Si Miao” is a kind of painting technique developed in ancient China. It was often used in depicting Buddhist figures, flowing robes and the like. However, what is embodied in your works such as “8”, “Chains” and“Transformation' is mainly the hardships and conflicts of life. How did the idea of“You Si Miao” occur to you?

Liang Shaoji (hereinafter referred to as “Liang”): Actually it all started three years ago. Thanks to my twenty years experience of silkworm breeding, I took a close look at the lifecycle of silkworms. I found that when spinning, their heads would keep on wriggling in the form of an “8”. I looked into some scientific findings, which confirmed my observation. As far as I'm concerned, the lifecycle of a silkworm is like an endless “8”, which not only looks dynamic and elegant, but also can be associated with Chinese philosophical symbols such as the Taijitu, a commonly used version of a symbol for Taiji (Supreme Ultimate). Moreover, “8” to some extent can be deemed as a symbol of digitization. French poet Charles Pierre Baudelaire said that “Modernity is the transient, the fleeting, the contingent; it is one half of art, the other being the eternal and
the immovable.” Due to the confusion and conflicts caused by the rapid development of modern science and technology and the enrichment of material life, it becomes even harder for people to
find the right position for themselves. In this sense, the soft and flowing thread can also be regarded as a representation of the status quo of life of the contemporary generation or the hovering spirit between the body and soul. Nietzsche stated that “... there is only one world - false, cruel, contradictory, seductive, without meaning. - A world thus constituted is the real world.” Of course, by “You” (which can be literally translated as “flowing”) I also refer to elegance and detachment. Ode to the Goddess of the River Luo by the famous Chinese painter Gu Kaizhi describes the love between man and goddess. This painting is considered a masterpiece of the technique of “You Si Miao”. I think there is something in common between such painting technique and the way silkworm spins."Silk threads" can be deemed as a symbol of the trace of life and interconnection among human beings.

The 8 Series, which consists of four pieces of works, presents an insight into the inner world of human beings. The first piece is a video featuring a silkworm which is spinning. At the meantime, audience can also watch silkworms spinning for real via a microscope. This is a piece where I try to integrate biology with art. The second piece is called Gui Gu Zi. Gui Gu Zi was a renowned Chinese strategist during the Warring States Period who was best known for his fortune-telling theory featuring the number “8”. A lot of silk-made “8”s spread throughout the space, a symbol
of the sensitivity and fragility of the contemporary generation. The other piece is called Chains, where fake metal chains are wrapped with silk threads. These 8-shaped chains present a sharp contrast between heaviness and lightness, hardness and softness. The striving of silkworms which spun on the cold metal, to some extent, symbolizes the adventures, struggles and toughness of life. The last part of the series is a neon light work entitled Transformation. Combined with a row of mirror placed opposite to the neon lights, the work makes audience feel like they are walking into a weird and dazzling corridor. “8”, “∞” and “$”, three emblems of desire, like three mysterious spells, pervade the whole space. The whole series is placed in a relatively dark and closed cube, creating a labyrinth-like space for audience to explore.

Following the labyrinth there comes the Star Calendar, which, to some extent, can be seen as a solution to the mysterious 8 Series. As entering the gallery, audience immediately span from the micro image to a macro universe. Fourteen projectors have been installed in this space, with fourteen images of clouds filmed during different periods of the day put on display in a loop. Cocoons, which indicate number 1-31, glitter among the flowing clouds, like stars twinkling in the sky. During the endless cycle of the electronic calendar, a dialogue between the permanent and the transitory is going on.

Upstairs there is the work Broken Landscape, where traces of silkworms’ life are all retained and represented on a piece of silk. Watching the metamorphosis of silkworm is like watching the evolution of life. The yellow and dark spots left by the excretion of silkworms together with the exquisite texture of the silk create an unparalleled “living” Chinese landscape painting. Moreover, the words “broken” (残) and “Zen” (禅) are pronounced similarly in Chinese, which adds more implied meaning to the work.

The last piece put on display is a sound installation called Listen to the Silkworms. Audience can take a seat and listen to the sounds of silkworms’ eating, spinning and metamorphosing on site. Due to the similar pronunciation in Chinese, the act of “listening to the silkworms” contains the implication of “listening to Zen”, to search for self-improvement and inner peace in a tranquil and natural environment.

The life of human beings bears much resemblance to silk threads, soft and yet extremely tough, extremely hard to break. After the massive earthquake in Sichuan last year, I created the interactive work Babies. The work was first presented on the National Day in 2008, referring to “the date of rebirth”. During the exhibition this time, once I saw a woman from the U.S. cry when wrapping the cocoons, deeply touched by the soft and yet penetrating power of these little and cute “babies”. The big balls of wire covered with silk, which hang from the ceiling in the entrance lobby, are called Cotton Candy. To some extent, it carries my deep concern and care for the immigrants who flock into the metropolitan and are only able to barely scrape a living.

Heidegger once said “poem is a kind of measurement and homecoming, which is the return into the proximity of the source...” In this regard, I just used “silk threads” to replace the role of “poem” and to me “silk thread is a kind of measurement and homecoming”, which reflects my care for the nature and life, and the measurement of men’s inner mind.

Dai: Due to the similar pronunciation of “broken” (残), “silkworm” (蚕) and “Zen” (禅) in Chinese, you once said that there were three layers of meaning contained in the use of silkworm as a medium. “Broken” refers to the broken linkage between traditional culture and contemporary culture; “silkworm” is the unique medium for you to represent and reflect upon the outside world; and “Zen” is the ultimate state to pursue. However, such three layers of meaning seem conflicting in nature. The lifecycle of silkworm is an endless one, and thus, a symbol of hope and life while “broken” implies some kind of “bitterness” of life. How do you deal with such kind of paradox? You’ve spent a lot of time learning how to breed silkworms and studying the characteristics of them. Is this conflicting with the core philosophy of Zen which emphasizes more
on sudden enlightenment rather than long-term practice?

Liang: As a matter of fact, I did gain some inspiration from the process of my creation. From the observation of the lifecycle of silkworm, I saw the visible traces of life and time, which intrigues me deeply. Buddhism, Zen and Taoism all mention the relationship between the permanent and the transitory. I live near a temple on Tiantai Mountain. The abbot of the temple once told me a story. Someone asked him how to find sacred relics. He replied that as long as you treated your work and life in a serious way, you were a devoted Buddhist. The philosophy of Buddhism was ubiquitous. In other words, the sacred relics are not something to be found but to be felt. The most important is your personal experience and inner balance.I read the following sentences at the Buddhist institute: nThe significance and affluence of life lie in the present. If you don’t get this, you are not able to truly live the present even though you live in some kind of remote and secluded area, isolating yourself from all kinds of distractions. These words can also be paraphrased into the old saying frequently mentioned: The great recluse is the city recluse, for he doesn’t have to escape from human society and human life in order to preserve his original happy nature. The abbot told me “You need to live the present. When you understand this, happiness and pleasure will come your way.” Back then I was quite confused. It seemed conflicting to me that how we could live the present while the ultimate goal of Buddhism was a better reincarnation. I consulted a friend at Wan Nian Temple. He told me that “the present” referred to the “moment of moment”, which reminded me of Baudelaire’s words stating that “Modernity is the transient, the fleeting...” However, according to the definition of Buddhism, the length of a “moment” becomes even shorter. It requires people to gain a sense of permanence within a transitory moment, which I find great and profound. Among the four major sects of Chinese Buddhism, Tiantai Sect is the most indigenous and most pristine. It provides us with a new way to learn more about the world as well as ourselves. The results of such observation would be reflected in my creation in a subtle way. Tiantai Mountain was the home for several well-known "crazy" monks in history. Most people regard them as poor and crazy monks. However, they made their choice to live the way they wanted. In others words, they lived the present. Han Shan, one of those "crazy" monks,wrote a lot of new-style poems in vernacular, which were highly appreciated by the avant-garde in the United States. They were like the flowing clouds or the babbling brooks,harmoniously integrated into the surrounding natural landscape. As a matter of fact, Tiantai area is also a place of origin for Taoism. Such a fact reminds me of Zhuang Zi, the famous ancient Chinese philosopher whose philosophy is centered around
how to keep a harmonious and balanced relationship between man and nature.Influenced by his philosophy, I gradually become more and more interested in learning and exploring more about the universe, myself as well as all the other living creatures.

Most insects look the same all through their life, while silkworms would experience several metamorphosis stages. It seems that Chinese people have some particular emotional attachment to silkworms. Hence there were the verses “the thread of the silkworm will only end when the spring silkworm dies,and not until the candle has burnt to ashes will the tears begin to dry.” In a sense,silkworms are closely connected with the history, culture and emotions of China. That’s why I’m so interested in studying Zen and art via silkworm breeding. The lifecycle of silkworm is a paean of praise to life. According to Buddhism, everything is fundamentally void. Heidegger also pointed out that existence and void are fundamentally the same. The constantly changing and seemingly incomplete state of a silkworm during its metamorphosis is, in fact, the process to reach perfection and rebirth. This is something I’ve learned from my observation of silkworm during the past twenty years, which has functioned as a great source of inspiration to my art creation. Chains is a typical example. Silkworm tends to climb up high. When it falls down, it will follow the thread given out from its mouth and climb up again. I feel that I see the endurance of
life in its act. Originally I intended to record the process by camera, only to found out it was not feasible for the silk thread was too slim. Milan Kundera’s The Unbearable Lightness of Being gave
me some new inspiration, which led to the creation of Chains. Fake metal chains wrapped with silk threads present a sharp contrast between heaviness and lightness, hardness and softness. It took me several years to create the work.

The idea of Nature Series No. 10 came totally by chance. I used to spend all night long observing silkworms when they started to spin. There was this one time that I was too tired to stay awake. When I waked up the next morning, I found a semi-transparent cocoon beside my neck. It suddenly occurred to me that “aren’t I myself also a silkworm?” I made some small metal sculptures in the form of bed and let silkworms spin on these beds. I initiated the work in 1992 and continued to work on it till 1999. It was selected to be exhibited at the 48th Venice Biennale.

In the middle of the night, when I was alone in the room where I bred silkworms, the noises of eating, spinning they made seemed to be louder than ever. Surrounded by such noises, I felt like I was witnessing the traces of fleeting time. This could be considered as the reason I brought the sound installation Listen to the Silkworms to the art museum.As far as I'm concerned, sericulture in nature is a great piece of artwork, and to exhibit it in the space of an art museum is a step forward I take to integrate art with life. To me, silkworm breeding is a process to learn Zen. There’re two core themes featured in my work: time and life. Fleeting time highlights the endurance of life and the anticipation for rebirth.

Dai: Buddhism, or say Zen Buddhism in particular, greatly influenced avant-garde art in Europe and the United States during the 1960s and 1970s. Recently Guggenheim Museum curated Buddhism and the Neo-Avant-Garde: Cage Zen, Beat Zen, and Zen, a retrospective to review the influence of Zen on western art. How differently do you think the philosophies of Buddhism and Zen are used in western contemporary art and Chinese contemporary art? What’s the difference between the Zen philosophy represented in your work and that in the landscape painting created during the Song and Yuan Dynasties?

Liang: I’m no expert in western art, but I feel that the western people, generally speaking,stress more on logic and analysis. Neo-Dada movement emerging in the 1960s and 1970s subverted
the traditional with their unconventional ideas, critical thinking and weirdly destructive behavior. They challenged with a point. They were inspired by Japanese Zen and used it as a weapon to arm themselves. The emergence of Neo-Dada had a lot to do with the emergence of concept art, which, in nature, features de-materialization and de-formalization.Since the philosophies of Neo-
Dada and Zen have something in common,the two are able to live in harmony and communicate with each other. While the tradition of Chinese culture is different from that of the west, and Zen grew out spontaneously within such a cultural atmosphere instead of being imported. Dada was a kind of anti-art, very powerful and aggressive. Let’s take Cage’s silence theory for instance. By creating a several-minute-long piece of complete silence, he compelled people to think and reflect. Neo-Dada influenced later styles like the surrealism, the Art of Assemblage and pop art. Different from the West, Eastern philosophy focuses more on the natural state of changes, which means it is not as aggressive but vaguer and more pristine. The sound installation Listen to the Silkworms is to put art back into everyday life. Audience are expected to discover and feel the inner peace rather than to create something new. As to the materials used in art creation, artists from China,Japan,Korea and other eastern countries tend to use what is more closely related with nature. For instance, rice and wood often play a role in Japanese artists’ work while in Cage’s work, piano is his favorite medium. Nevertheless, I also love the International Klein Blue developed by Yves Klein, Giorgio Morandi’s Still Life,Wolfgang Laib’s sculpture made by pollen grains and Anselm Kiefer’s works which incorporated materials such as straw, ash and shellac.

Painting in Song Dynasty reached a climax in the history of Chineseart and Zen Painting played a prominent role at that time. Often featured by pine trees, bamboos, the moon, flowing clouds or babbling brooks, Zen Painting expressed people’s understanding and feeling of the universe in a very simple and elegant way. Personally I like Drunken Celestial (Po Mo Xian Ren Tu,泼墨仙人图) by Liang Kai very much. Zen Painting is praised highly by Chinese literati. Famous painter and calligrapher Dong Qichang named his room “Zen Painting Pavilion”. However, contemporary Zen Painting is a bit different from the traditional. We tend to pay more attention to represent and reflect upon the reality, trying to express Zen in a more contemporary way with the use of more high-tech elements. Broken Landscape is a piece in which art is combined with biology, and electronic program control is adopted in Star Calendar. Both can be seen as an attempt to pursue and express Zen in the form of contemporary art.


(Excerpted from Contemporary Art and Investment, Issue. 10, 2009)