A Restless Soul
— Dialogue between Li Xianting and Zeng Fanzhi
Li: I remember we first met at your graduation exhibition.
Zeng: Yes. That’s in the summer of 1991 when I had just finished my graduation
painting, namely, Hospital series, and that’s Hospital Triptych you saw.
Actually I had painted a lot about hospitals before that.
Li: I was preparing for the post-89 exhibition at that time. The paintings were
pretty good, and I felt like involving some younger artists in the exhibition.
But I only saw Hospital Triptych and I hoped you could paint more.
Zeng: I didn’t know much about the exhibition but I had a strong feeling that
something would happen because Wei Guagnqing and Cao Dan told me that you were a
very important figure and were preparing for some kind of exhibition but they
didn’t tell me about it very clearly.
Li: I was then surprised at the mature style in your Hospital series. More than
ten years have passed but your painting, unlike most graduation works that show
no sign of maturity, is still being appreciated by people. What makes your
style? I also saw some paintings that haven’t been exhibited in your studio.
Some are of Max Beckmann style. Does Hospital series have anything to do with
it?
Zeng: Well, I should begin with the personal exhibition in my third year at
college, when I painted models as required by the courses in class but after
class I adopted a totally different style. I loved drawing people around me,
like my friends and people in the street. Sometime took photos; sometimes I did
sketch but mainly portraits. At that time what I desired to express was my
feelings. I also did abstract paintings. But finally I found that figure
painting was my favorite. I can always get a special feeling when I see the
emotions of people in pictures. When I was ready to start the graduation
creation, I realized a single person was too weak for the graduation exhibition,
and I thought it over and over again but couldn’t find a way out. I was living
near a hospital then, and I had to use the lavatory in it everyday, so I went
there frequently. Everyday I saw numberless people queuing to see the doctor. I
saw patients in danger and emergency treatment by doctors. I was suddenly aware
that it was the very feeling for painting and I should draw a series, and I
began to plan a bigger task. I employed all the techniques, skills and observing
methods used in my personal exhibition and I was very excited during that
period. Then I completed it. I felt extremely satisfied. I was so eager to have
it seen by the teachers that I took it to school on the following day thought it
was still wet. Seeing it, they were shocked C I judged from their facial
expressions though they said nothing. At that time people usually gave no remark
when viewing others’ paintings. I liked it so much.
Li: Before that you seemed to be following expressionism but now you are
completely your own. I’d like to know what exactly happened during the time?
Zeng: In the early years at college I loved painting expressionism, and I
studied many masterpieces. I was learning from every master. For instance, I
imitated Raoul Dufy as well, whose lines are perfectly drawn. When he paints a
thing, he can make the line in and out; when he paints a person, the color of
the person is inside while the lines may come back. Those lines are wonderful.
Willem De Kooning, the master of American abstract expressionism is also one of
my favorite. His strokes are very forceful but I think it would be rather
difficult to paint figures with his methods. I tried several times. It’s OK but
not mature enough. Later on I painted such pictures continuously. At last when I
drew the heads and hands in Hospital I got a little feeling. For the last piece
I used the paintbrush reversely. It moved backward. There came the feeling I was
awaiting.
Li: Comparing Hospital with what you absorb from the painters you mentioned just
now, I notice you’ve succeeded in controlling the furious, neurotic and crazy
things, and dealing with them meticulously instead of painting casually. Is it
relevant to your personality or to the characters you paint?
Zeng: My personality. I believe some small details should be controlled in
painting and I do that in figure painting. I will not draw as I wish but I
mustn’t let the feeling slip away. I have to control it properly. If I choose
free painting, then I must be entirely free. I had painted that way before,
completely half abstract. No human figure could be seen. But I was not very fond
of the style from the very beginning. You need to produce a story and special
characters in your paintings but you can’t copy the models; otherwise, no one
will be interested in that.
Li: I think one reason is your personality, the other is that what you feel is
rather concrete. People’s facial expressions in the hospital and what happened
there stimulated you, and the stimulation was fairly important. With that you
found the basic thing for creation, namely, the association with life.
Zeng: You said it. It is indeed largely due to the living environment in my
childhood. Before coming to Beijing I had been living in an alley since I was
born, where people were stricken by different diseases, and there were various
deformities. I can never forget the feelings for them. However I dress up now C
wearing suits and ties, I have something deep in my heart. It moves me and can
never be wiped out. I will surely express and release it. It is in fact an
incontrollable feeling, and it is this feeling that gave birth to those
paintings.
Li: You paint meat for a time.
Zeng: After I finished Hospital I painted some pictures of meat. At first I drew
only meat and no person. Later I put meat and people together. The persons lie
on top of the meat. The one I like most is Meat No. 2. I was inspired by a scene
I once saw. In summer it is scorching in Wuhan City, and at that time there was
no household air-conditioner. In some places there were electric fans but not in
every place. There is a store selling meat. All the meat was carried from the
meat processing factory. The whole meat was an ice block, iced meat. A lot of
people then slept on it, and it was very comfortable lying on it in summer. I
took some photos and then painted the picture.
Li: They were enjoying the cool but your painting displays a sense of cruelness.
Zeng: I agree. I have been thinking of this all the time. Why do I paint like
this? I guessed later it was because of some other feelings. The color of
people’s skin and the meat sometimes look alike, such as a pressed stretching
leg and a stack of chopped meat. Since then I’ve painted a lot of meat, making
it the same color with human body, and I painted people with the feeling when I
saw the tightly pressed meat. All these are for the same reason, and I changed
Hospital to flesh color.
Li: This has never changed after that.
Zeng: I am used to this color. Looking back now, I have been applying this color
for over ten years.
Li: Your life now is well-off but you are still painting these things. Do you
still have such feelings at your heart?
Zeng: I suppose so. Now life has undoubtedly been much better materially.
However, the more change we have, the stronger I feel that something can never
be changed. The things at my heart don’t allow the change. Though we have a
better life I feel somehow uneasy. After I became a father, I felt more
sensitive to these things.
Li: Could you elaborate on this?
Zeng: Well, I’m afraid I am not very clear at this, either. No specific thing
gave me that feeling. For many times I felt the material change in my life but
nobody around me has changed in any way, my relatives and my friends. Every year
I go back visit them. My personal change estranges myself from them a little
bit. Actually I thought a lot about that. Well, I don’t know how to put it?
Li: It’s illusive.
Zeng: Exactly, but it’s only on my part. One man’s help actually can’t change
all. But sometimes the more help you give to someone, the more pressure you
bring to him. He would feel terribly bad. I have a lot of friends around me.
Their lives remain all the same… I painted some beautiful pictures in the past
like the pink and yellow things but I think they are nothing but false things on
the stage.
Li: Do you mean those with blue sky and white clouds as the background?
Zeng: Right. Originally I had thought to make them more splendid but that would
look more unnatural, just like the scene on the stage. Human beings all tend to
show the best of them, such as the affected poses before a camera, the simulated
posture of a complacent citified person. Paintings like Mask reveal such a
feeling.
Li: As an artist you have to keep the basic conscience of a human being, and
this is the reason for being an artist. Do you agree to this?
Zeng: Yes, that is necessary. I firmly believe we should do everything according
to our conscience.
Li: What particular experience spurred you to paint “Mask”?
Zeng: “Mask” was started in 1994 when I was painting the meat type. I came to
Beijing in 1993 but I painted still with the feeling in Wuhan. I noticed several
of the meat series at the later stage were not so good. Maybe they were good to
the viewers but I understood they lacked something from my heart though the
techniques were mature. Of course more mature and comprehensive techniques can
help control these things, and the imperfect strokes may not be recognized, but
painting, as for me, is not simply for work’s sake. I expect sort of pleasure
during painting, no matter the pleasure is a relief or an expression. Frankly
speaking I realized later I had some affected feelings and I didn’t think I
could continue that way. My paintings had turned out to be a failure. I was
trying to make some change to my model, and I cared a lot about techniques.
Occasionally I used a scraper when I painted the hospital and meat, and I got
the idea of painting a person wearing a mask with these techniques, a big one so
that the effect could be obvious. I tried, without too much thinking, and the
visual effect was good. The change at that time was mostly due to the emphasis
on visual feelings.
Li: Is there any particular feelings for life in “Mask”?
Zeng: Yes, I suppose so. After I came to Beijing, I didn’t have many friends
with whom I could truly open myself. I had a mixture of feelings when meeting
new people, and I had to contact with a lot of them. While I was in Wuhan I
seldom made new friends and I was not good at public relations. All my friends
knew each other since childhood. I had to learn to get along with strangers in a
new environment, and these feelings stirred me deeply, so I think the paintings
are a reflection of things in my heart, not necessarily all people’s. It’s just
my personal feeling.
Li: You think there are too many masks when people get along, don’t you?
Zeng: That’s for sure. There are many disingenuous things behind.
Li: I have been watching your paintings since you came to Beijing. I noticed two
features: one is in “Mask” and is relatively easy to see, that is, there is an
obvious symbol of something. However I don’t think your most important work is
the original ”Mask”, but the processed one with the scraper. After being wholly
scraped once, it looked different. There appeared a new way of expression C
hiding and decorating. Once you said the blue sky and white clouds were like
stage decorations, and I think they are similar to what you said about ”Mask” in
some way. But you preserved something like the “hands”. While almost everything
was changed, a spastic hand remained. Did you have this idea in your mind when
you deal with the scraping?
Zeng: Yes, I did. I used the scraper so as to make a little difference from the
original one. Apart from that, I wanted to get rid of some keen feelings I was
eager to express. The scraper was able to remove the exciting strokes, entirely,
and leave the calmness, hiding the excitement inside. I didn’t change the hand
because I believe there are things in the world that can’t be really changed.
Li: All the hands in your paintings are exaggeratedly big with bulky, spastic
condyles. I am watching you all the time. You are careful at dressing, but on
the other hand, I can see you may be at loss suddenly in your mind, and that
gives me a feeling of spasm.
Zeng: To tell the truth, I am an introvert person. The larger the occasion is or
the more people I face, the more nervous I am.
Li: In which year did you accomplish the Mask series?
Zeng: It should be in 2001. Actually in 1999 I drew some abstract pictures. I am
very interested in abstract things all the way. Every time I make some change,
it is inspired by abstract things. I can find a lot in them. I started abstract
paintings in 1988 when I was at college. I felt the disorder at that time and
decided to present it, then I did quite a few abstract paintings, very excited.
I still have them in my home. I don’t paint concrete things in life so that I
can make some visual change easily.
Li: Does abstract art have any influence on your latest paintings?
Zeng: Sure. All my present works are from feelings when I paint abstract things.
I maintain the incontrollable feelings and magnify the sudden weak feelings,
placing them in their original positions. I still paint abstract pictures and I
may never stop that. It is like a pause or a break I need when I feel nervous or
depressed when painting other pictures.
Li: How come the helical strokes? Are they an exaggeration of a little thing in
abstract painting?
Zeng: Exactly. I did these freely, black and white when I painted abstract
pictures. Then I painted with two big brushes, in a reverse direction. Later I
used some small strokes when drawing the outline. The mixing of black and white
excited me. It was fun. I practiced and painted a lot in this way, big and
small, before I decided to take a further step. I didn’t have a clear goal at
first. I thought it was the meat grinder that ground people’s skin like that. It
produced a very uneasy feeling visually, and I couldn’t put the feeling into
words. As I recall, I was painting that way for several years. I have a name for
my personal exhibition in Shanghai C “we” or “freezing lot with life”. It
contains a lot of such feelings.
Li: I am suddenly excited by your chopped face. You are like a master now. By
that I mean compared with the complete style you had before, you’ve got a kind
of air at this stage, a greater one.
Zeng: I went to Shanghai days ago for a painting with various sizes of brushes,
thick and thin. They are like Chinese chopsticks. I could manage them adeptly. I
also tried to use the brush normally. But wherever I went you only saw the
brush, and I didn’t like that, so I moved the brush backward. I was surprised at
the change. It’s very interesting and I kept painting.
Li: What color is it?
Zeng: Generally I like pure, simple colors, black and white, occasionally a
little blue in between, very little. The white was on first but finally it went
bottom. As I painted more, I got a feeling of Jackson Pollock but I still felt,
well, I didn’t control much but they had to be completed one time only.
Li: I don’t think so. Pollock came into being in Dada period and emphasizes an
unexpected effect produced unconsciously but yours is not accidental. Actually
it is totally controlled, including the use of brush, namely, the moving of it
back and forth. It associates me with languished flowers and rotted leaves,
dying grass in autumn, setbacks in life…
Zeng: You’re quite right.
Li: Though the brush goes smoothly, there’s a break from time to time.
Zeng: Yes. The crack excites me. You’ve got a sharp eye here. There is a
wistaria in my home. The branches of it inspired me. They will bend and crack in
winter, all of a sudden.
Li: Next is also connected with your sense of tragedy, probably unconsciously. I
noticed the two yellow lines at the first sight. They immediately made me think
of the decayed plant…overlapping, messy, but the cracks are different from down
moving strokes in other abstract drawings. This might be relating to reverse use
of brush. Languished flowers and decayed grass C reverse use of brush C setbacks
in life are similar in nature. They produce the same feelings in people’s heart.
Zeng: Later I have more of these things, one layer upon another. I use white and
black in order not to have too much transition. I also tried many other colors
but it turns out that rich colors are not so effective as simple ones.
Li: Your paintings have reached another higher level. Sometimes I’m afraid you
would become less and less sensitive to the tragic elements as your life becomes
better-off, but now it seems I’m over-concerned.
Zeng: If I choose “Mask” I can continue to draw infinitely but I will feel
bored. Besides, many other things affect me. For example on some occasions, I am
introduced as “Mask artist” and labeled a trademark. When I’ve got too many it
is like a blow because it has turned into a symbol, and I don’t want it last
forever. For several years I was very contented. My paintings were known to many
people but I didn’t think it was an absolutely good thing. There won’t be much
significance if it continues like this. After I had a child I have more
understanding of life and more concerns. There is no telling of the future. The
living environment and education were not good when we were children. You had to
think all the time whether you were right or wrong. For instance, in the maths
class, we were asked to figure out how much we could gain and how much we were
exploited by the landlord. On the walls were slogans like “never fear of
hardship and death”. Students were learning in such environment. I don’t know
whether you have watched “a silver coin” in which there was a plot that a child
was forced to swallow mercury and died. The picture story was so well drawn,
black and white, extremely miserable, filling me with hatred.
Li: We were brought up with a strong ideology. The problem is whether you are
allowed and whether you are able to reflect on yourself, whether you are allowed
to have your own standpoint and feelings.
Zeng: Childhood should have been showered by sunshine. But the education I
received during the Cultural Revolution taught me too much hatred for the upper
class. Living in such an environment you will have a different understanding of
relations between people. Either you thought of nothing like a fool, or you
racked your brains hoping to understand more before finding no answer to who on
earth was wrong. So most likely people chose not to think too much and were not
clear about the purpose of life you are asked to pursue. I painted The Last
Dinner. Jesus is betrayed but all people wear a red scarf except Judah who wears
a golden yellow tie, showing that he has given up the pursuit of his final goal
in life.
Li: Love is the most important thing in art because love endows the artists with
basic conscience and thus, basic cultural standpoint that is not subject to
mainstream culture or fashion, particularly the collusion of the two, which rely
on the media and are prevalent, controlling people’s nerves. I feel disgusted
when I see the affectation and flattering behavior of some singers and hosts or
hostesses. They are pitiful, as they have no “personality” any more but are
merely dolls deformed by the mainstream culture. Maintenance of the conscience
and independence is not easy for human beings, but you are able to keep a sober
mind and are very clear about the real living environment. I think it is because
you can release your gloomy feelings with art and that’s very important. I wrote
a pair of spring festival scrolls: art is the same with religion in nature in
the heavenly world; art works are inseparable from money in the earthly world.
The horizontal inscription is “what course to follow?” I always regard art the
same with religion in nature. Both of them are a way to save our souls.
“Everyone is an artist” is an important proposition in modern art, the nature of
which is to return the rights in art to daily life and let art be a practical
way to save the soul. However, on the other hand, the levels and rules in art
system distinguish common people from successful artists. This is a paradox, and
is a test for the artist to see which is more important for him, fame and gains
or self-salvation of the souls.
February 5, 2003